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Discussion Starter #181
To Gregg (MisterC):

There are several options when it comes to the tapping location of the relay trigger wires (Terminals 85 and 86!!!).

Some simply tapped the AUX cable in the headlight bucket. That's the easiest way because it will only have power when the engine is started, however, the lights will come on when ignition is on and STAY on during the start of the engine, which is not truly desirable.

The other way was explained by Paul (boxwrench) who modified the drawing a bit and I have asked him to chime in on your questions as well. I prefer battery ground whenever possible, especially high-amp applications. In the drawing above, the lights are grounded by the battery and that same ground wire was tapped to ground the the 86/85 circuit as well, but the latter is a low amp circuit (all it does is trigger the relay) so a mechanical ground would be fully acceptable.
 

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I followed mostly this diagram:



I don't remember if I hooked to the aux socket.
my Aux lights get power all the time and controlled by the switch on my handle bar.

my power connect go to my junction box I installed under the seat that goes to the battery.

not sure what exactly what is wanted.
 

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WOW my eyes hurt!!! :shock: :shock:
Great post, thank you!
One question to make sure I don't mess things up. I want to install a fuse panel / box with a relay.
I would install the relay and then the fuse panel connects to 87 on the relay, and the electronics go to the fuse panel. Is that correct?

Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter #184
Eh, nope, the fuse should be between the battery and terminal 30 - the main power supply (see the little rectangle with the ~ sign, that's the icon for "fuse" ;) )

ion said:
WOW my eyes hurt!!! :shock: :shock:
Great post, thank you!
One question to make sure I don't mess things up. I want to install a fuse panel / box with a relay.
I would install the relay and then the fuse panel connects to 87 on the relay, and the electronics go to the fuse panel. Is that correct?

Thank you!
 

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Thanks Moenko.

I was not referring to the fuse itself but to the panel. I'm installing a HD fairing with radio and Lighter, I currently have a light bar and in winter I use heated gear, so I want to add a fuse box or fuse panel..., but I'm not sure how the order should be...
I think it should look something like this wouldn't it?



The "orange" line goes to the Yellow/white wire
If this is correct now I have to start thinking about Amps and what kind of wire I need to use! Its going to be a busy busy weekend! :lol:

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #186
Ahh, now I see what you're trying to do ... you want to control the entire fuse box with one relay. Of course that would work but is usually not necessary. I have a fuse bar myself. Most of my smaller add-ons do not require a relay so I wire them straight. Only my Stebel horn and my light bar need a relay. But your drawing would work, just make sure to match the correct wire to your application, and then the correct fuse to protect that wire (see page 1 for a chart). Good luck ;)
 

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Cornish Scooter said:
Nice one, thanks for the diagram it was a great help ,I wired my spot lights with no problems 8) 8) 8)
WELCOME to the VR site, new member.
 

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To Gregg (MisterC):

There are several options when it comes to the tapping location of the relay trigger wires (Terminals 85 and 86!!!).

Some simply tapped the AUX cable in the headlight bucket. That's the easiest way because it will only have power when the engine is started, however, the lights will come on when ignition is on and STAY on during the start of the engine, which is not truly desirable.

The other way was explained by Paul (boxwrench) who modified the drawing a bit and I have asked him to chime in on your questions as well. I prefer battery ground whenever possible, especially high-amp applications. In the drawing above, the lights are grounded by the battery and that same ground wire was tapped to ground the the 86/85 circuit as well, but the latter is a low amp circuit (all it does is trigger the relay) so a mechanical ground would be fully acceptable.
This has been the most interesting thread. Thank you moenko, mtmous, Boxwrench,C50T2006, and others for giving us insight into wiring issues. I am sorry I can't recall all the names as I am new here.

I certainly do plan to make this mod very soon. I already have the lights. I am thinking about a suitable position. I intend to wire it in a way that the lights go off when the starter turns the engine over. I am considering the highway bars, using a 3-piece clamp or on the windshield frame it self.

I have some thoughts on running the ground to the battery. I think there are advantages with either choice. Instead of using the terms mechanical or electrical ground, as the grounding we are talking about are all mechanical, I prefer to use the terms local (for mechanical) and global. Except for active grounding, groundings are mechanical essentially, although their function is electrical. Clearly, it's not possible to ground every piece of electrical item back to the battery, nor is it necessary. As long as the battery itself is grounded properly and there is a continuity between points of local ground, it doesn't make a difference. What's important is maintaining integrity of the ground.

I had a very strange thing happen to me once. Having sold my house in DE,
the moving truck had packed all my stuff, except the bike, to move it to D.C./ area. After the truck left, I started my bike up. It started after a lot of trouble and ran very very rough. It would buck when I tried to move. Now, I was stuck. I no longer had access to the house, or even any part of the property, I had no tools and it was getting dark. I figured I would drive slowly to a friends house and try to do something about it the next morning,. As I was approaching a stop sign, and put my brakes on, the engine raced in normal fashion as if the nike wanted to slip away from under me. Once I released the brakes and started moving, it would buck again. The same thing happened when I used my turn signals. It was very very strange. Anytime I used brakes, turn signals, or horn, the bike wopuld speed. It was especially difficult when I would brake to stop.

Do you know what the problem was? I found out the following morning what the problem was.

My other comment is about location of the fuse. I have not seen a good explanation of why fuse should be as close to the battery as possible, other than that it's a good practice. The reason one would want the fuse as close to the battery is the following:
If the fuse is further down the line, and short circuit caused by the portion of the wire between the fuse and the battery, the fuse will be short-circuited/shunted out as the portion of the wire between the fuse and the battery would be a shunt. If the fuse is very close to the battery, the fuse will be able to do it's job in case of a short circuit that occurs further down the line.
 

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Discussion Starter #190
Hi Yaatri, nice editorial and interesting story about your bucking bike. Don't want to guess but it surely sounds like an electrical problem you had.

About the fuse close to the battery: You are right that this location is primarily chosen for convenience, however, that it also the point where potentially the highest current is flowing in a DC circuit. To protect all wires and the battery itself, the location makes perfect sense ;)
 

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OK, I'm going to try and plan this out in steps, and you folks feel free to let me know where I may be messing this up.

I already have a 12v socket attached to the handle bar, and wired (with an in-line fuse) to the Aux plug in the head light bucket. I am installing an OEM Lightbar. My plan is:

1) Run 14 ga red (with 20 amp fuse near the battery end) & black wires from battery forward.

2) Splice the red wires from the lights together.

3) Splice the black wires from the lights together.

4) Connect the spliced black wires from the lights to the black wire to the battery.

5) Connect the red wire from the battery to point 30 on the relay.

6) Connect the spliced red wires from the lights to point 87 on the relay.

7) Tap into the yellow/white wire from the headlight switch inside the headlight bucket.

8) Connect the lead from the Yellow/White wire to one lead of the lightbar switch.

9) Connect the other lead of the lightbar switch to point 86 on the relay.

10) Connect a lead from point 87 on the relay to ?????(any convenient ground?, the ground from the Aux plug?)


If I understand all this correctly, this should allow the lights to be on any time the ignition AND the lightbar switch are on; turn the lightbar off while starting; and allow me the option of turning the lightbar off (in case I find myself in one of those states where they must be off with the low beams. It will also allow the isolation of the ignition circut from the lights, so they will not heat it up.

So, help me out, tell me what I have overlooked or messed up.

BTW, just to be sure, the relays I am looking at are 40 amp, and have 5 connect points instead of 4 (one being right in the middle)
 

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OK, I'm going to try and plan this out in steps, and you folks feel free to let me know where I may be messing this up.

I already have a 12v socket attached to the handle bar, and wired (with an in-line fuse) to the Aux plug in the head light bucket. I am installing an OEM Lightbar. My plan is:

1) Run 14 ga red (with 20 amp fuse near the battery end) & black wires from battery forward.

2) Splice the red wires from the lights together.

3) Splice the black wires from the lights together.

4) Connect the spliced black wires from the lights to the black wire to the battery.

5) Connect the red wire from the battery to point 30 on the relay.

6) Connect the spliced red wires from the lights to point 87 on the relay.

7) Tap into the yellow/white wire from the headlight switch inside the headlight bucket.

8) Connect the lead from the Yellow/White wire to one lead of the lightbar switch.

9) Connect the other lead of the lightbar switch to point 86 on the relay.

10) Connect a lead from point 87 on the relay to ?????(any convenient ground?, the ground from the Aux plug?)


If I understand all this correctly, this should allow the lights to be on any time the ignition AND the lightbar switch are on; turn the lightbar off while starting; and allow me the option of turning the lightbar off (in case I find myself in one of those states where they must be off with the low beams. It will also allow the isolation of the ignition circut from the lights, so they will not heat it up.

So, help me out, tell me what I have overlooked or messed up.

BTW, just to be sure, the relays I am looking at are 40 amp, and have 5 connect points instead of 4 (one being right in the middle)
I think you s hould use a Fuse box to run your power plug thru and any future addons.

All but #10 seem to follow the diagram I posted . 87 is used to power the Aux lights.
It seems ok to tie the headlight and light bar together to the trigger post 85.
don't know what your 5th post does.
 

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I think you s hould use a Fuse box to run your power plug thru and any future addons.

All but #10 seem to follow the diagram I posted . 87 is used to power the Aux lights.
It seems ok to tie the headlight and light bar together to the trigger post 85.
don't know what your 5th post does.
You're right, #10 should have been 85.

I looked at the markings on the relay, 5th post is marked 87a, so it may be made to run power to two different circuits, but I'll only be using one.
 

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Hi Yaatri, nice editorial and interesting story about your bucking bike. Don't want to guess but it surely sounds like an electrical problem you had.
Right, it was an electrical problem. It was a faulty ground. The battery ground terminal made intermittent connection as it had gotten loose. Since accessories, such as horn, brake, turn signals etc. were locally grounded to the frame, the ignition circuit got proper ground only when an accessory was being used. Had all accessories been grounded directly to the battery, which was grounded to the frame, nothing would work. So, there is value in local grounding--grounding the accessory to the frame, which will provided a floating ground.

About the fuse close to the battery: You are right that this location is primarily chosen for convenience, however, that it also the point where potentially the highest current is flowing in a DC circuit. To protect all wires and the battery itself, the location makes perfect sense ;)
I think I failed to make myself clear. The fuse should be between the battery and R+ (the hot side of the load as possible. Think of a simple circuit where you have a single load R.

______FUSE________SHORT_______ R+___^^^^^^^R-________
|_____________(+)Battery(-)_______________________________|


--------------------------------OR------------------------------


|_____________SHORT___ R+___^^^^^^^R-___P2____FUSE____
|________(+)Battery(-)______________________________________|


--------------------------------OR------------------------------


_____________SHORT____FUSE___ R+___^^^^^^^R-________
|____(+)Battery(-)_______________________________|


In the second and the third situation, once there is a short circuit, the fuse is shunted out, as if it were not there. The fuse is prevented from performing it's function if there is a short circuit. The fuse will still perform in case of an overload in these two situations.

But in the first situation, the fuse is not shunted out in case of a short circuit.
 

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Powering fuseblock via a relay and SPDT relay--moenko;C50T2006;mtmous;boxwrench;ion

Thanks Moenko.

I was not referring to the fuse itself but to the panel. I'm installing a HD fairing with radio and Lighter, I currently have a light bar and in winter I use heated gear, so I want to add a fuse box or fuse panel..., but I'm not sure how the order should be...
I think it should look something like this wouldn't it?



The "orange" line goes to the Yellow/white wire
If this is correct now I have to start thinking about Amps and what kind of wire I need to use! Its going to be a busy busy weekend! :lol:

Thanks
Hi,
I have two questions. One is regarding the circuit suggested by ion. The fuse panel itself provides fuse for each electronics/accessory circuit. What's the need for the extra inline fuse? It would have to be 30A fuse and is redundant as each circuit is protected by its own fuse. However, redundancy does not hurt, but does it buy any extra protection?
I am also a bit worried about the power draw with the extra headlights and the heated garments/gloves etc. What's the rating of the alternator used in 2005 C50?

I would insert the fuse panel where the fuse is. If you have a 6 circuit fuse panel, say for the walmart headlights (110W ~ 10A, Heated vest 60W ~6A, heated pants 60W~ 5 amps, heated grips 12W~ 1A and/or heated gloves 24W~ 2A and 12V power outlet for GPS, cell phone charging (less than 1A) and leads for charging the battery. That's an extra 260W, in addition to the normal load!

Should one use 12V in calculations or 13.5 or 14.5 V, or whatever voltage the alternator puts out? Using 12V instead of 14.5V in the calculation can make 20% difference to the current draw.

My 12V accessory (cigarette lighter) doesn't have to be powered while the engine is running, as I am afraid to have my GPS/cell phone mounted on the handlebars--it could fall off or get damaged in rain. Secondly, I haven;t got the means to connect earphones through my helmet. Tryi8ng to decipher the map on the GPS screen while I am riding through the windshield and vibration, is a distraction that can take your eyes away from the road. So I plan to use GPS only when I am lost, in which case, I would stop my bike. So I want it to be powered when the engine is off. The battery charging leads (SAE or Coax connections) have also to be live only when the engine is not running.

Here is what I propose. Instead of using an SPST relay with 4 pins, I would use an SPDT relay with 5 pins. Of the two pins (87 and 87a), one would be live when the relay trigger is off. Which is what I need for the 12Volt outlet and the charging leads. Sure, it would be live while starter is operating, but during that time, I won't have anything connected to the circuit through that pin. Am I correct that when the ignition is switched off, and the key is in the off position, so that nothing is on (not even headlights, auxiliary lights or heated garments, i.e. there is no trigger to relay) I could still have my 12Volt outlet and the battery charging leads on?


One thing I would definitely use is a relay socket-- 5 pin for the 5pin relay and 4 pin for 4 pin relay.

Using a 5 pin SPDT relay is not that innovative, as I could achieve the same purpose by connecting the 12V power outlet and the battery charging leads straight to the battery. The primary reason for using a 5 pin relay is that I have not been able to find a 4 pin relay socket and 5 pin relays are easier to find than 4 pin relays. I wouldn't want the the 5th pin to be bare. This way I could use the 5th pin without having to worry about the naked 5th pin a short circuit.

I have to think about the trigger for the relay though. When the ignition is off, it might make the relay irrelevant.
What are your thoughts on these moenko, C50T2006, mtmous, boxwrench, ion?
 

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Discussion Starter #196
Wow, that's a lot of stuff up there. Let's see, I'll try to make a start:

Ever gone in your basement and looked at your circuit panel? You have a main (100 or 200 or more amps) and then each circuit again is protected by a breaker. Same applies to DC electrics. If you wouldn't use the fuse before the relay, there is theoretically unlimited current allowed to the unit. The relays themselves are rated, usually 30 Amps in automotive applications. You want to a) protect the relay itself and, more importantly, the wire that goes to the relay (Terminal 30). Again I want to remind everyone that fuses first and foremost protect the wires: they can catch on fire (unlikely, but possible) if they overheat.

To the output of the alternator, someone else would have to comment, don't have the current numbers handy.

Your calculations should be done (IMO) with exactly 12 Volts, not 12.9, or 13.1 etc. The battery has a "idle voltage" when the engine is off that is closer to 12 Volts than to the voltage when being charged by the alternator. An add'l 260 Watt is definitely a lot but not necessarily unsafe or impossible - waiting for someone to let us have the alternator rating. Theoretically that's another 21-22 Amps, so make sure the wires match the fuse rating and the fuse matches the application.

The idea of using a 5 pin SPDT is okay, but it's also okay to leave the 5th pin uncovered. If you don't like it bare (I'm with you here), put an insulated "shoe" over it and voila, it's covered. There are endless possibilities, you can even use 2 or more relays in line. I personally would want my 12-Volt outlet powered when the engine is running rather then when off - if you use a 12V tire pump to get a flat tire back in shape, you wouldn't want to run it too long off the battery only, plus there are weatherproof GPS' out there. Knowing you won't run out of battery for the GPS while on a ride would be important to me.
 

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Wow, that's a lot of stuff up there. Let's see, I'll try to make a start:
Than you very much for your insightful post. As usual you are full of information. I did not expect a response so quick.
Yes, That's why I am concerned. I don't want to overload the system.

Ever gone in your basement and looked at your circuit panel? You have a main (100 or 200 or more amps) and then each circuit again is protected by a breaker. Same applies to DC electrics. If you wouldn't use the fuse before the relay, there is theoretically unlimited amperage allowed to the unit. The relays themselves are rated, usually 30 Amps in automotive applications. You want to a) protect the relay itself and, more importantly, the wire that goes to the relay (Terminal 30). Again I want to remind everyone that fuses first and foremost protect the wires: they can catch on fire (unlikely, but possible) if they overheat.
But I would put the fuse panel where the one inline fuse is, i.e. between the battery and pin 30 of the relay. If you were controlling a single circuit with a relay, you need one fuse. The fuse panel performs the same function, a fuse for each circuit, as a single fuse does in absebce if a fuse panel. NO?

To the output of the alternator, someone else would have to comment, don't have the current numbers handy.

Your calculations should be done (IMO) with exactly 12 Volts, not 12.9, or 13.1 etc. The battery has a "idle voltage" when the engine is off that is closer to 12 Volts than to the voltage when being charged by the alternator. An add'l 260 Watt is definitely a lot but not necessarily unsafe or impossible - waiting for someone to let us have the alternator rating. Theretically that's another 21-22 Amps, so make sure the wires match the fuse rating and the fuse matches the application.
I'd like to stay well below the power rating of the alternator.

The idea of using a 5 pin SPDT is okay, but it's also okay to leave the 5th pin uncovered. If you don't like it bare (I'm with you here), put an insulated "shoe" over it and voila, it's covered. There are endless possibilites, you can even use 2 or more relays in line. I personally would want my 12-Volt outlet powered when the engine is running rather then when off - if you use a 12V tire pump to get a flat tire back in shape, you wouldn't want to run it too long off the battery only, plus there are weatherproof GPS' out there. Knowing you won't run out of battery while on a ride would be important for me.
Yes, that's one circumstance when I would sorely miss 12 Volt power with the engine running. I may just put in one of each kind. If you are out of gas and lost, but don;t have a flat tire, a 12V outlet without the engine running would be very useful. :)
 

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At 5700rpm plus or minus
Note: fi system bikes the fi uses a noticble chunk of that.
I went LED for alll my ancilliary lights and hid (usesless power than halogen) for the head light

Glad my BMW puts out 720
 
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