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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know of an other injector for the M50/C50? The Suzuki Branded ones are $170/200 Yet on Ebay you can find injectors for the C90/LC1500 for under $20 . There must be an Alternative, Yes?


Thanks
Joe
 

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Nope. The C90 injectors will NOT work on the C50.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
So, I got the two new injectors,should be here today. We will see if it solves the stumbling/ idle stalling! I'll report back! $350.00
 

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I've been looking into this issue as well. The Burgmans and GSXR's are the same part #, and can be had quite cheaply both used and even as new aftermarket for reasonable prices. the "G10" injectors are used on the C90 and several other models, but the "G14" injectors that the C50 uses seem to be an exclusive to this engine.

I was looking for specs on the injectors- namely cc/min flow rate since that's the key as physically they're all identical from what I've seen, but haven't had much luck turning up numbers. There's a youtube video of someone cleaning C50 injectors and the "clean" test flowed about 62cc of fuel in 30 seconds at what they said was 50% duty cycle, which would seem to suggest they're 250cc/min injectors, a relatively common size for both car and MC use.

$200 for one fuel injector is absolute insanity even by OEM standards.
 

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Here's what I found. The stock C50 (I have an 05 model, so this info is only relevant for 05-08 C50 or M50 bikes) injectors are made by Keihin (you can see their "K" logo stamped on them) and are their code C. On Keihin injectors, the single letter code refers to flow rate. The other codes underneath the electrical connector refer to batch/date of production and ultimately meaningless.

Punch "Keihin C injector" into google and a-ha, it turns up a plethora of fitment for Civics throughout most of the '00s. Honda part # 16450-PLC-003, but also commonly referred to simply as a Keihin "C stamp" or "type C". Physically they appear identical. They are also 4 hole injectors. That Honda part has a plethora of cross references as well.

Bostech MP4169
SMP FJ338
BWD 63774
Autoline 16323
GB Reman 842-12282
Wells M799
Airtex 4G1302

Ebay is littered with those (or rockauto, or virtually anywhere). Prices are generally around $20-25 apiece for either new aftermarket or remanufactured Keihin's. Far cry better than $220 for one from Suzuki.

But, what about actual flow rate- just because they look the same doesn't mean they are. This was tricky, as far as I can tell there are no readily available or published specs for these in OEM fitments. All data is from independent testing by performance shops or injector remanufacturers that have cleaning/flow test rigs.

Shows a test of stock C50 injectors. The post-cleaning result shows approximately ~57cc's of flow after a 30 second test at 50% duty cycle. That equates to about ~224cc/min flow rate (standard measurement).

Looking up stock injector size for a Honda D17A6 engine, tests all point they are anywhere between 220 and 230cc/min, again, depending on who did the test. Some variance is to be expected, but the agreement is right in that range. 3 bar (44psi) also seems to be largely standard for port fuel injecton systems, so this should be apples to apples.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
True UNLESS...….. They malfunction electrically rather than clog which is what mine did . But appreciate the advice anyhow THANKS!!!!
 

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Or, you bought a secondhand bike that has been sitting with a rusty tank. Dumping a can of magic potion in the gas does not take care of that, nor did a DIY ultrasonic clean, or even a professional injector service. If a bike with a rusty tank was jerry-rigged to run again after storage, the injectors can be ultimately just f-ed. No amount of potions, cleanings, will restore them to proper function and you'll chase your tail with a poorly running bike.

The main culprit in my case was the filter on the in tank pump assembly. It's the little cylindrical thing in between the pump and flange. This was absolutely packed full of a rusty, nasty sludge. I could stick a pick in there and scrape it out, that bad. Being Suzuki does not sell this part(unless you want to buy the entire pump assembly for $500), I had to clean it. This wasn't easy but doable. Let it soak in vinegar overnight and literally chunks of puke dumped out of it in the morning. Carb cleaner followed with shop air blew out more muddy crud. Sent it for a few baths in the ultrasonic cleaner with 50/50 simple green and water and liquid turned to sludge again within a few minutes. Eventually it started coming out clean. Gave it another few blasts with carb spray, which came out clear, and reinstalled.

I'm guessing failure to thoroughly clean the in tank pressurized filter was the reason behind the "1-2 tanks" of good performance between clearing the injectors. The cruddy filter was plugging them up again.
 

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Or, you bought a secondhand bike that has been sitting with a rusty tank. Dumping a can of magic potion in the gas does not take care of that, nor did a DIY ultrasonic clean, or even a professional injector service. If a bike with a rusty tank was jerry-rigged to run again after storage, the injectors can be ultimately just f-ed. No amount of potions, cleanings, will restore them to proper function and you'll chase your tail with a poorly running bike.

The main culprit in my case was the filter on the in tank pump assembly. It's the little cylindrical thing in between the pump and flange. This was absolutely packed full of a rusty, nasty sludge. I could stick a pick in there and scrape it out, that bad. Being Suzuki does not sell this part(unless you want to buy the entire pump assembly for $500), I had to clean it. This wasn't easy but doable. Let it soak in vinegar overnight and literally chunks of puke dumped out of it in the morning. Carb cleaner followed with shop air blew out more muddy crud. Sent it for a few baths in the ultrasonic cleaner with 50/50 simple green and water and liquid turned to sludge again within a few minutes. Eventually it started coming out clean. Gave it another few blasts with carb spray, which came out clear, and reinstalled.

I'm guessing failure to thoroughly clean the in tank pressurized filter was the reason behind the "1-2 tanks" of good performance between clearing the injectors. The cruddy filter was plugging them up again.

Gross. Why Suzuki didnt make a serviceable (replaceable) fuel filter is beyond me. No use adding your own either because it can only go after the main filter which is no good
 

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You have to remember, Suzuki built this bike to meet a price point. Longevity and service ability are not part of the equation.
 

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You have to remember, Suzuki built this bike to meet a price point. Longevity and service ability are not part of the equation.
Most bikes in this category are built to meet a price point. If anything they were doing themselves out of money. Your typical rider is not going to change their own fuel filter, so they could have slapped that on the 'every 4 years' service schedule and got extra income from genuine Suzuki service centers. Make a nice profit on the part itself and the labour of removing the tank etc.
The R&D likely cost them more designing a pump and filter as one unit too as opposed to a pump and a very simple, generic in line filter like most cars and bikes
 

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Gross. Why Suzuki didnt make a serviceable (replaceable) fuel filter is beyond me. No use adding your own either because it can only go after the main filter which is no good
Who knows, but from my experience most EFI bikes are that way. It's not really a "cheap bike" thing, the in-tank fuel pump assembly is almost always treated as one giant part. I'm guessing somewhere you could find a generic EFI fuel filter that happens to physically fit if you looked hard enough, but I really couldn't be bothered.

You could splice in another fuel filter in the hose between the tank and rail, but yeah, if the one in the tank is full of crud and slowly leaching it out, it'll eventually clog up the second filter as well. A band-aid at best.

At least the in-tank assembly on the C50 can easily be disassembled- a few screws and it all pulls apart. I've seen a few where it's one giant hunk of sealed together plastic and can't be disassembled without destroying it, so if anything goes wrong you're forced into paying the king's ransom for a new one.
 

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Most bikes in this category are built to meet a price point. If anything they were doing themselves out of money. Your typical rider is not going to change their own fuel filter, so they could have slapped that on the 'every 4 years' service schedule and got extra income from genuine Suzuki service centers. Make a nice profit on the part itself and the labour of removing the tank etc.
The R&D likely cost them more designing a pump and filter as one unit too as opposed to a pump and a very simple, generic in line filter like most cars and bikes
You misunderstand. With the exception of fuel injection and a dual spark cylinder head, these bikes have remained fundamentally unchanged since they were introduced nearly 20 years ago. The design is so outdated that they continue to use a mechanical drum brake in the rear which either doesn't stop the bike, or instantly locks the back tire. Entry level bikes from Honda and Kawasaki are coming with novelties such as rear disc brakes, ABS and even traction control.

Suzuki doesn't have a whole lot of R&D into the bike because frankly they don't sell a bunch of them. They are a legacy model in their portfolio which is grossly in need of an update. But the only thing they've done in the past 10 years is add LED lighting. These are disposable, entry level cruisers relying on 1980s era technology.
 

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You misunderstand. With the exception of fuel injection and a dual spark cylinder head, these bikes have remained fundamentally unchanged since they were introduced nearly 20 years ago. The design is so outdated that they continue to use a mechanical drum brake in the rear which either doesn't stop the bike, or instantly locks the back tire. Entry level bikes from Honda and Kawasaki are coming with novelties such as rear disc brakes, ABS and even traction control.

Suzuki doesn't have a whole lot of R&D into the bike because frankly they don't sell a bunch of them. They are a legacy model in their portfolio which is grossly in need of an update. But the only thing they've done in the past 10 years is add LED lighting. These are disposable, entry level cruisers relying on 1980s era technology.
Lol you must despise Harley Davidsons then. Well all of them before the M8 engines anyway which only came out a couple years ago and finally introduced a little bit of water cooling. Has anyone used pushrods and chain driven primary drives in a motorcycle since the 70s? Only difference is the C50 is £2000 used for a good one, Harley Fatboy is £10,000 used for a 'good' one. And lets not even talk about how they handle, brake (even with discs) or the cam chain tensioners made of cheese.

I think Suzuki kept these bikes basic on purpose. Its a V Twin cruiser, throughout history they have always been basic. Harley honours that, some of the other Jap makers try to turn it into a modern day design with varying levels of success. This years Kawa Vulcan is a monstrosity for example. However Triumph's 2017 Thunder Bird is a modern cruiser done right imo. Decent shocks, ABS as standard, disc front and rear, belt driven, overhead cams, fuel injection with miles to empty display, 6th overdrive gear etc etc.
With all that said there appears to be a growing disinterest in cruiser bikes as a whole so id be surprised if Suzuki even release any medium sized cruisers ever again. Same goes for most manufacturers.
 

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So, I ordered a set of four(they're all for a Civic, so almost always come in sets of four) remanufactured (cleaned/tested) Keihin "C" injectors off ebay. They came today, except they're "D" stamped. Grrrr. They also claimed these had been cleaned and new pintle caps, one of the four was chipped(shouldn't effect function, but still) and the other three were dirty and clearly used, so not too thrilled. I did check the spray pattern and it seemed OK. Seller had a ton of positive feedback and seems to exclusively sell reman injectors, so kind of disappointing they not only sent the wrong parts, but these clearly hadn't been rebuilt how they claim.

I sent a note to the seller to return them, but for the hell of it decided to drop them in the bike and see what happened. I've had this thing apart so many times now I had the bike back together in maybe 15 minutes. The o-ring on the manifold is slightly different- the bike has round o-rings on the fuel rail and a square profile ring for the manifold, the automotive injectors have round o-rings on both. The round one is slightly wider than the square one and didn't fit. Had to swap the square o-ring onto the new injectors but then everything went together fine.

The bike started up and ran, but right away could tell it was running too rich- From what I found the "letters" are about 10% apart from each other, so "D" would be 10% higher flow than "C", ect so guess that's not too surprising. It ran but not well. Low power, lots of stumbles and hesitation, rich brown smoke, would load up and stall if it idled for more than 15-20 seconds. Opposite of before, where it was clearly too lean from it's original clogged/poorly spraying ones.

I got on Rockauto and looked up injectors for that car, ordered a pair of Autoline 16323 remans (which cross references to the Honda part mentioned earlier). The picture with it shows it's the same injector with a clearly visible "C" on the side. They're $22/ea, and you can order them individually so just got two. I'll be damned if I'm going to hand Suzuki $450 for a new pair of these things. If for some reason the automotive "C" injectors don't work, I've found you can buy the entire intake manifold (with injectors) for substantially cheaper than just the injectors (because ebay), so I'd just get a whole used OEM assembly off a crash victim.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hey man,

Let us know how you make out with the autolines injectors from Rock. Wishing you best of luck and hope they work for you! If you get stuck and need OEM ,I got mine at MR Cycle .com For 350 its a little cheaper ,but still ridiculous , I Know!
 

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OK. I got the two Autoline injectors from Rockauto, aaand one is marked "C" and the other is marked "D". They were in the same boxes and had the same reman part #, but the C and D are two distinct part #'s from Honda and used on two different engines (the "D" went on the version of the engine with VTEC, the C was on the version without).

Anyway, for poops and grins I dropped them in the bike and gave it a shot. It ran, but poorly again. Still seemed too rich with a poor off idle and response, but not as bad as with two "D" injectors. I wouldn't totally dismiss the idea that getting two actual "C' injectors may still work, but I'm getting tired of ordering and returning stuff. I put in an offer for a complete used throttle body off a 2005 M50 off a crash victim part-out.

The stock injectors have been ultrasonic cleaned several times, blown out with pressurized carb cleaner, and appear to spray just fine, but it still refuses to run correctly. It mostly runs OK, but the first 10% of the throttle doesn't really do anything, the idle is weak, power seems down across the board, and tons of popping on decel. All still lean symptoms.

Decided to do a fuel pressure check. The pump in the tank died shortly after getting it and was replaced with a good quality aftermarket. I jerry-rigged up a fuel pressure tester with a my compression tester gauge, a couple air compressor fittings and a bit of hose. Plugged it to the air tank and it was bang on matched with the compressor's gauge. Stuck the hose on the tank outlet, plugged in the power and cycled the key. The pump ran, but only registered ~20psi or so, which dropped to zero almost instantly once the pump shut off, it should hold pressure for at least a few minutes.

Pull the tank and the pump assembly, one screw and the regulator comes out. Air blows straight through it, all coming out around the spring/diaphragm end, and not out the return line that funnels the excess gas back into the fuel pump's little cup. So the regulator is dickered. Well, half the pressure it should have will definitely cause issues. Surprise, Suzuki doesn't sell the regulator on it's own either. Only as part of the complete $500 pump assembly. And of course, companies that sell replacement regulators for GSXR's, v-stroms, ect, don't have one for the c50. They look very similar, aside from not having the right angle in them, but the nipple looks identical. Could probably make it work, would just have to make a new bracket to retain it.

Just one thing after another with this bike. EFI is nice when it works, but when it doesn't, what a nightmare. I'd rather have just a carb.
 

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Got an entire in tank assembly off ebay and stole the regulator off it. Yep, old one was bad. If you blow into the input side, it should not pass any air until it exceeds around 3bar or 43ish psi. The old one you could blow through with a fart. The replacement assembly was off an 08, but the parts are identical. The 08s assembly had a different connector and an extra plug for the fuel gauge float but the filter Puck and the regulator swapped right into the 05's.

Put it back together and the bike ran like brand new (with its stock injectors that had been sonic cleaned while pulsing them open). The popping, poor idle, hesitation, and low power were all gone.

So, moral of the story is check fuel pressure first. If that's good, then start looking at cleaning injectors. This bike really was a pretty much worst case scenario-- sat a while, rusty tank, was quickly revived, and run for a while. The fuel pump crapped out shortly thereafter. The filter Puck was internally rotted away and blown out. The injector screens were plugged.

Even still, the injectors are apparently fine after a good cleaning. The cost of a HF sonic cleaner is about 1/5 of what two new injectors cost, so we'll worth buying one even if it's just for this.
 
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