C50 Longevity - Page 2 - Suzuki Volusia Forums : Intruder Volusia and Boulevard Forum
 9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-14-2016, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Austria, Vienna
Posts: 31
Thanks: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
@Jmbrad:

nice observation, something that I haven't thought about.

Now we all know the carbureted engines do run richer and therefore cooler than lean engines.
That would also mean, that bikes with aftermarket exhausts without catalytic converters run leaner than stock bikes. If there's something true about that theory that would mean fuel injected bikes with aftermarket exhausts without tuning should have an higher risk of engine failure than stock bikes..... would be interesting to know if that's the case.

But then on the other hand bikes with an aftermarket exhaust and fuel tuning running richer than stock bikes should theoretically have an higher chance of getting high mileage than stock bikes .... in theory.


Using higher octane gas - as far as the information goes that I have collected online - is burning cooler that lower octane gas, but impose the risk of more carbon deposits in the engine. Could possibly help if our theory is true.



On the other hand tough:
Next to my C50 I still have my 125cc Piaggio scooter (the mother company of the Vespa). 125cc single cyclinder, sees max rpm regularly thanks to a variomatic "gearbox". (Idle is 2500rpm, clutch engages at 4000rpm, minimal acceleration at 7300rpm, most riding happens at around 8500 to 8800 rpm, redline is just a hair above 9000rpm.)
Now these engines do run 50.000 to 100.000 km without any issues at all, a lot of Vespa's in Europe with more than 50.000km on the clock with no engine work done at all.

Now what's interesting with the Piaggio and the Vespa's is, they run incredibly lean, they run so lean that they have accelerating issues from cold starting .... mine needs to run a few minutes before it accepts commands from the throttle, and still then it runs jerky.... Very lean running engine but still performing flawlessly.....
Jmbrad likes this.
alex_at is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 03:47 AM
Junior Member
 
Orion61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
A lot of people say all the C50's run lean, I tried a K&N air filter on mine for a week to see, I simply cannot afford the new exhaust, the aftermarket adjustable chip, but I wont put the lean running (no back pressure) pipes on until it have the chip too.
These stupid clean air laws in the US are so stupid in some areas, such as no more 2 cycle lawn Mowers... COME ON it is a stinking Lawn Mower!!!!! I would be willing to bet Cattle and other Livestock Farts put more Global Warming gasses in the air.. While CHINA and India belch out horrendous amounts of Earth Killing Gasses!! and just ONE reason we cannot compete, EERF!! but I digress, When I put the K&N on I could hear a throatier acceleration, BUT, (and here it gets interesting), I was getting some slight popping while slowing, going down large hills etc... so off it came, Now thinking on the rich/lean point, shouldn't we just run out stock Air cleaners longer OR dip a light coating of oil on them to limit air flow to do the first thing?
When Fuel Injection had been around for about 10 years or so in 4 wheelers I noticed them lasting many more miles than before, when I asked a Senior Mechanic why? He said, " Fuel injection produces a MUCH better regulated, and cleaner combustion". He followed that with " Carbs ran a lot richer and there was a lot more Carbon deposits that caused premature wear". So this seems a bit confusing to me.
As far as higher temps go I have used Water Wetter a product that promotes better contact to the surfaces by engine coolant and shows a definite difference in cars with temp gauges is extreme heat.
I am also wondering if the higher Mileage being reported is partially due to the older age of the Bikes being reported.
I am betting if someone comes up with #1..a mixture of Fuel and/or Additives, #2.. a 3rd party mapping and chip, the EFI motors HAVE to come out on top, if started early on. The old carbs cannot compete with the EFI for mulitple adjustments per second real time as an Engine is running. Another question is, have there been other Engine changes internally?
Also is there perhaps a desire from some who are still historically hanging onto the "old days" of Carbs.
I still remember when I was young an old H International Tractor motor that had a slight knock, since we used the heck out of the old girl as a utility Horse for small jobs, we decided to overhaul it. After tearing it down we found a small chunk of carbon was causing all the noise! That old tractor ran like a million bucks and served up for another 15 years.
I am looking forward to those of you a lot smarter on Motors than me to chime in... One thing is for sure, A lot of people are spending undue time worrying if they can get 100,000 miles on their bikes! Me? I'm just gonna' shut up enjoy my bike........and ride......
Larry Duane
pcdoctorcom likes this.
Orion61 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Orion61 For This Useful Post:
alex_at (08-15-2016)
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Austria, Vienna
Posts: 31
Thanks: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Hi Larry, thanks for sharing your thoughts!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
A lot of people say all the C50's run lean, I tried a K&N air filter on mine for a week to see, I simply cannot afford the new exhaust, the aftermarket adjustable chip, but I wont put the lean running (no back pressure) pipes on until it have the chip too.
Backfiring exhaust is definetly a sign of the mixture beeing lean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
These stupid clean air laws in the US are so stupid in some areas, such as no more 2 cycle lawn Mowers... COME ON it is a stinking Lawn Mower!!!!! I would be willing to bet Cattle and other Livestock Farts put more Global Warming gasses in the air..
That's true, kettle is a very big source of CO2 emmitment, they emmit much more than cars, trucks and motorcycles together. Scientifically proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
When I put the K&N on I could hear a throatier acceleration, BUT, (and here it gets interesting), I was getting some slight popping while slowing, going down large hills etc... so off it came,
Yes, that's coming from an lean mixture, I had an sport exhaust on my scooter too, no cat and no baffle - that thing was backfiring crazy. Unfortunately that's bad for the engine even tough it sounds badass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
Now thinking on the rich/lean point, shouldn't we just run out stock Air cleaners longer OR dip a light coating of oil on them to limit air flow to do the first thing?
Possibly. I heard many times before that an stock aircleaner over time gets better at filterling smaller particles because of the holes in the filter element beeing partly blocked by filtered debris. I'm unsure about oiling the stock filter, depending on what material it is made of it might disintegrate with oiling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
When Fuel Injection had been around for about 10 years or so in 4 wheelers I noticed them lasting many more miles than before, when I asked a Senior Mechanic why? He said, " Fuel injection produces a MUCH better regulated, and cleaner combustion". He followed that with " Carbs ran a lot richer and there was a lot more Carbon deposits that caused premature wear". So this seems a bit confusing to me.
That is correct, carburetors are much more "stupid" by design, they always dump an predefined mixture of gas and air into the engine, they cannot adapt like a FI can. But the problem with FI are emmission regulations, that's why our FI bikes run so lean. That's also the reason why you need an fuel tuning after putting a less restricitve filter on or an aftermarket pipe. So while FI are simply better technology the emmission laws kind of interrupt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
I am also wondering if the higher Mileage being reported is partially due to the older age of the Bikes being reported.
Possibly, we don't have any real scientific data of how many bikes ran how many miles and how many have a died engine to compare the VL800 carburator version to the C50 FI version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
I am betting if someone comes up with #1..a mixture of Fuel and/or Additives, #2.. a 3rd party mapping and chip, the EFI motors HAVE to come out on top, if started early on. The old carbs cannot compete with the EFI for mulitple adjustments per second real time as an Engine is running. Another question is, have there been other Engine changes internally?
I agree with you, the FI engine has to come out on top. I have no clue if the engine has been internally changed, but other than the necessary parts for FI I don't think so, I mean the new C50's still have that damn non quality chain tensioner part. And till today, there's no substitute from Suzuki, I guess they've given up on these bikes. In Europe the C50 is on sale, I bought mine on sale. Why? They only reach EURO3 emission standards and have no ABS, not even optional. But for 2017 ever new registered bike MUST meet minimum EURO4 emission standard as well as it must have ABS. That's why Suzuki is phasing out the C50 and till now there's no follow up model. Same happened to the Honda Shadow 750, I couldn't get one anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion61 View Post
Also is there perhaps a desire from some who are still historically hanging onto the "old days" of Carbs.
I still remember when I was young an old H International Tractor motor that had a slight knock, since we used the heck out of the old girl as a utility Horse for small jobs, we decided to overhaul it. After tearing it down we found a small chunk of carbon was causing all the noise! That old tractor ran like a million bucks and served up for another 15 years.
I am looking forward to those of you a lot smarter on Motors than me to chime in... One thing is for sure, A lot of people are spending undue time worrying if they can get 100,000 miles on their bikes! Me? I'm just gonna' shut up enjoy my bike........and ride......
Larry Duane
While engines from the past, especially old american V8's are known for their robustness, half a million miles on the original engine for example, I'm pretty happy that I don't have any carburetted engines anymore. How many mechanics nowaday still know hot to properly setup an carburettor? You don't learn that anymore....

People also forget that engines back in the day were much more maintenance intensive than nowadays, nowadays you can go 30.000 miles between service intervals without a single issue (except if you drive a Suzuki C50 ).


I will drive my C50 'cause it's fun, she looks fantastic and I enjoy her. If the day is coming I can still think about an rebuild (I have an friend who is a motorcycle mechanic).
Orion61 likes this.
alex_at is offline  
 
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 12:14 PM
Junior Member
 
Orion61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanks Alex_at, In my posts I try to be; As accurate as I can in facts, not afraid to ask about what I am unsure of, IF I try and predict some point to stay realistic. The ABSOLUTE bottom line for me is to be respectful to others, AND understand there are Riders here that know much more than I do when it comes to these Great Bikes and sometimes Life in general! I always try to learn from those Folks, I am also not afraid to accept being corrected if I am wrong.
Great Thread Here is my beautiful C50T I inherited from my Best friend/Best Man at my Wedding/ Big Brother when he passed away. He taught me ALL of the talking points in the above post. By Vern, I miss you, love you and will until we ride together again.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_8817.JPG (904.1 KB, 13 views)
Orion61 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Orion61 For This Useful Post:
alex_at (08-15-2016)
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Austria, Vienna
Posts: 31
Thanks: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
In regards to fuel injected C50's and wether their total mileage might be lower than the carburetted ones:

This thread in our forum here is an interesting read: 2013 C50, 50.000 miles: 50k miles and still running strong!!!

Now I'm curious to know wether his loud engine is due to timing chain slack or simply an overdue valve adjustment.
alex_at is offline  
post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 01:46 AM
VR Member
 
pcdoctorcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southern California
Posts: 255
Thanks: 11
Thanked 39 Times in 31 Posts
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_at View Post
Now I'm curious to know wether his loud engine is due to timing chain slack or simply an overdue valve adjustment.
Alex_at, as stated in my thread, the noise has always been there, so maybe it's just noisy to me. I've read these engines are noisy.

It's not valve noise, as it has been there always, even after I have adjusted the valves to their maximum clearances.

As for any issues with the cam tensioners, I run almost a flat speed (65+ mph, for an hour each way, to/from work, 5 days a week, and I don't pop the clutch or push the bike hard. I bought it to be a cruiser and that's what it's used for, ... cruise to/from work every day.



Ride your bike, your way, at your speed, for your reasons. Never let anyone else decide who, where, how and why you should ride.
Ride for the love of riding and nothing else and every trip will be an adventure and a memory to be relived over and over.

pcdoctorcom is offline  
post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Austria, Vienna
Posts: 31
Thanks: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
@pcdoctorcom

ah, I think I know the noise you mean, it sounds a bit like a sewing machine? Mine has 370 miles on the clock now, and it does sound like a sewing machine sitting underneath the gas tank. It is better now since my valves have been adjusted but this sound is normal for these engines as I've read on the forums.

There's a nice youtube video on how the engine should not sound - and how it sounds after an camchain rebuild: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzUZVzzk0-o





edit: I just read your post again, it's not a valve noise ...... Now I'm interested how it sounds and what it is. Maybe it's just the natural engine noise.....
Jmbrad likes this.
alex_at is offline  
post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Austria, Vienna
Posts: 31
Thanks: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdoctorcom View Post

As for any issues with the cam tensioners, I run almost a flat speed (65+ mph, for an hour each way, to/from work, 5 days a week, and I don't pop the clutch or push the bike hard. I bought it to be a cruiser and that's what it's used for, ... cruise to/from work every day.

I don't push mine hard either, it's a cruiser not a race bike. I drive it like a '50s Cadillac on two wheels.

In regards to the cam chain tensioner: There are many possible causes that have been discussed, from the engine beeing made cheap, from running too high rpm - but I noticed one thing in your driving style: You don't drive short trips and you don't have many start stop cycles on your engine. Maybe that's a contributing factor, your 65mph+ could already fall into the "high rpm" riding category, or do you have an DJ Drive installed?
alex_at is offline  
post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2016, 10:34 PM
Junior Member
 
Orion61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I remember in the 70's when we were lucky to get 30000 miles out of our foreign bikes!
It was in 1986 I had an old 73 SX650 it had 31,000 miles and everybody was amazed. I do believe the bottom ends of these are a little better than some say and a top end rebuild on a running bike at 45-50k to replace the rings, cam chains and guides would
only be about $500.00 if you did the work yourself, I rebuilt a bikes top end with the worst bottom end in all of motorcycle history, the 1973 TX750, it ran great for years until the guy I sold it to decided to adjust the cam tensioner himself and didn't know what he was doing.
Again I say, don't worry about it and ride it or quit complaining, sell it and buy a $30-40k+ bike that MIGHT break that 100k mark.
When mine was new in 2008 it was $6900.00 and a Harley 883 was $11k a friends 08 Sportie blew a rear jug at 40k.... I have NEVER in my life seen so many complaining or worrying about bike engines blowing before it happens.
Jmbrad likes this.

Oh Susie Q, Baby I love You, Susie Q.
CCR
Orion61 is offline  
post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:38 AM
Senior VR Member
 
Yvwi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Murrayville, GA
Posts: 336
Thanks: 11
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
61K miles into this C50....

I bought mine practically new (112 miles) in '07, and have only had one real "breakdown"; the front coil went out. I was still able to ride it into town to turn it over to a dealer for the troubleshooting/fix. (I would have sworn it was a fuel issue) I just did an overdue valve adjustment, and was pleased with the performance uptick, as usual. Mine has indeed been burning oil since about 30K miles, but I know to keep an eye on it. I have used Rotella dino since about 9K, and change with filter every 3K. Now, I am NOT heavy-handed on the throttle, and I just recently changed front brake pads for the first time, and they still had some meat on them. Rears are still within the indicator range, and the clutch is still solid. I hit the shaft with Moly-B paste (not grease) with every other rear tire change- the splines still looked pristine about two months ago.(I also replace the seal and circlip every time) I also have two Harleys, a Road King and a Low Rider, but with this mileage, there is no way that I could get rid of the Bully for near what it is worth to me to have it around for dependability. When the mill goes, I will probably be looking for a scrapper.
rvcycleguy and Jmbrad like this.
Yvwi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki Volusia Forums : Intruder Volusia and Boulevard Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome