Ethanol Update - Page 2 - Suzuki Volusia Forums : Intruder Volusia and Boulevard Forum

Two Red Ryders · 12-04-2012, 02:08 PM

One rationale for ethanol production in the U.S. is increased energy independence, from shifting supply from oil imports to domestic sources. Ethanol production requires significant energy, and current U.S. production derives most of that energy from domestic coal, natural gas and other non-oil sources.Because in 2006, 66% of U.S. oil consumption was imported, compared to a net surplus of coal and just 16% of natural gas (2006 figures), the displacement of oil-based fuels to ethanol produced a net shift from foreign to domestic U.S. energy sources. Currently the USA is an net oil exporter in 2011 The U.S. exported more gasoline, diesel and other fuels than it imported in 2011 for the first time since 1949.

And becoming an oil exporter wasn't all done by increasing reliance on our internal oil resources there is more than one way to skin a cat. Drilling is one answer but not the only answer to USA energy independence.
Using less gas obtained from imported oil is one way, improved gas mileage vehicles, ethanol, transportation accounts for a lot of our oil usage. But alternate energy sources, wind, water, solar, nuclear, thermal, natural gas, coal, and new renewable energy sources, ethanol, biofuel, and biomass also help us become energy independant.

kerf · 12-04-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Red Ryders

The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, President Bush signed it on December 19, 2007 in response to his "Twenty in Ten" challenge to reduce gasoline consumption by 20% in 10 years. The Bush Energy Act directed DOE to assess the feasibility of using intermediate ethanol blends in the existing vehicle fleet. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) evaluated the potential impacts on legacy vehicles and other engines. In a report released in October 2008, NREL described the effects of E10, E15 and E20 on tailpipe and evaporative emissions, catalyst and engine durability, vehicle driveability, engine operability, and vehicle and engine materials. This preliminary report found that none of the vehicles displayed a malfunction indicator light; no fuel filter plugging symptoms were observed; no cold start problems were observed under laboratory conditions; and all test vehicles exhibited a loss in fuel economy proportional to ethanol's lower energy density

USA Today

E15 alcohol fuel can wreck engines, auto groups' data say

e10 and e15 engine damage - Dogpile Web Search=

Popular Mechanics

Can E15 Gasoline Really Damage Your Engine?

E15 and Engines - Can Ethanol Damage my Engine - Popular Mechanics

Two Red Ryders · 12-04-2012, 02:55 PM

Automakers have filed a lawsuit against the EPA's decision to make E15 (gasoline with 15 percent alcohol) legal for all cars after 2007. They argue that, among other problems, the blend could damage the engine. Wait, moonshiners used to run their cars on 190-proof hooch.

above from the popular mechanics article first they state moonshiners used 190 proof hooch. Then they ignore this fact and speculate on how ethanol could damage your car.

Bush's (NREL) evaluated the potential impacts on legacy vehicles and other engines found that none of the vehicles displayed a malfunction indicator light; no fuel filter plugging symptoms were observed; no cold start problems were observed under laboratory conditions; and all test vehicles exhibited a loss in fuel economy proportional to ethanol's lower energy density.

kerf · 12-04-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Red Ryders

Automakers have filed a lawsuit against the EPA's decision to make E15 (gasoline with 15 percent alcohol) legal for all cars after 2007. They argue that, among other problems, the blend could damage the engine. Wait, moonshiners used to run their cars on 190-proof hooch.

above from the popular mechanics article first they state moonshiners used 190 proof hooch. Then they ignore this fact and speculate on how ethanol could damage your car.

Bush's (NREL) evaluated the potential impacts on legacy vehicles and other engines found that none of the vehicles displayed a malfunction indicator light; no fuel filter plugging symptoms were observed; no cold start problems were observed under laboratory conditions; and all test vehicles exhibited a loss in fuel economy proportional to ethanol's lower energy density.

Very often, laboratory testing conditions fail to duplicate long term real world conditions. Race cars have been run on alki for years. The engines are are purged of fuel at the end of the day and subject to frequent overhauls. A street car may not be driven for weeks and may live in the driveway year round.

Alcohol, with a 130 octane, is a great racing fuel but pretty sorry for the street. Blends don't really bring anything to the party other than issues but such is life in a country run by bureaucracies.

Two Red Ryders · 12-04-2012, 03:37 PM

I personally have had less problems with my vehicles in recent years with the 10% ethanol than I had in the old days before ethanol was introduced with many warning and still warning of dire consequences of 10% ethanol. I have also survived dire consequences from the elimination of leaded gas.

I have read were the current increased cost to manufacture a flex fuel vehicle capable of running on E10, E15, E30 or E85 was about $100. No doubt converting an existing car to E85 capable would cost more do to disassembly and changing of parts but in Brazil it has been done to many vehicles which initially were not capable of running on the current Brazilian standard of E85. My understanding is the 15% gas in E85 is only needed for cold temperature starts of the engines.

For me going from 10% to 15% is likely to be a non event based on the government testing of existing vehicles under the Bush Administration. I suspect some minor plastic parts may not last as long with E15 but major engine components are unlikely to fail. The winter weather has always exposed any weakness in the combustion engines. The use of ethanol E10 has reduced the problems I use to experience in the winter. I suspect it's the ethanol ability to absorb water and prevent water damage in the fuel systems that gets the credit.

kerf · 12-04-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Red Ryders

I personally have had less problems with my vehicles in recent years with the 10% ethanol than I had in the old days before ethanol was introduced with many warning and still warning of dire consequences of 10% ethanol. I have also survived dire consequences from the elimination of leaded gas.

I have read were the current increased cost to manufacture a flex fuel vehicle capable of running on E10, E15, E30 or E85 was about $100. No doubt converting an existing car to E85 capable would cost more do to disassembly and changing of parts but in Brazil it has been done to many vehicles which initially were not capable of running on the current Brazilian standard of E85. My understanding is the 15% gas in E85 is only needed for cold temperature starts of the engines.

For me going from 10% to 15% is likely to be a non event based on the government testing of existing vehicles under the Bush Administration. I suspect some minor plastic parts may not last as long with E15 but major engine components are unlikely to fail. The winter weather has always exposed any weakness in the combustion engines. The use of ethanol E10 has reduced the problems I use to experience in the winter. I suspect it's the ethanol ability to absorb water and prevent water damage in the fuel systems that gets the credit.

I wish you well.

Thunderhoof · 12-04-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Red Ryders

Automakers have filed a lawsuit against the EPA's decision to make E15 (gasoline with 15 percent alcohol) legal for all cars after 2007. They argue that, among other problems, the blend could damage the engine. Wait, moonshiners used to run their cars on 190-proof hooch.

above from the popular mechanics article first they state moonshiners used 190 proof hooch. Then they ignore this fact and speculate on how ethanol could damage your car.

Bush's (NREL) evaluated the potential impacts on legacy vehicles and other engines

Keep in mind that cars from the Prohibition era were very simple compared to today's cars. A 21st century automobile or motorcyle has many more plastic and synthetic rubber parts that can be damaged by ethanol. If E10 is a 'non-event' then why do our gas powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chain saws, etc. have so many problems with it? They tend to sit around longer between uses (unlike most our vehicles) and that is where you begin to experience problems.

Two Red Ryders · 12-04-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderhoof

Keep in mind that cars from the Prohibition era were very simple compared to today's cars. A 21st century automobile or motorcyle has many more plastic and synthetic rubber parts that can be damaged by ethanol. If E10 is a 'non-event' then why do our gas powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers, chain saws, etc. have so many problems with it? They tend to sit around longer between uses (unlike most our vehicles) and that is where you begin to experience problems.

Maybe you are using gas powered tools made in Communist China by folks (unskilled laborers) with have very limited experience which may be the reason for a lot of current failures with modern small gas tools.

I still have an old Craftsman chain saw made in the USA more than 40 years ago that initially ran just fine with leaded gas and now still runs just fine with E10 Ethanol gas. It sometimes sits for near a year but starts and runs fine when ever I need to use it. As it only has a 14" bar I mainly use it for trimming or light jobs and a bigger chain saw for bigger jobs. Since they introduced Ethanol gas I have found my small power tools have way less problems than in the old days.

One thing I found out over the years was metal fuel tanks and fuel delivery system will eventually rust and screw up the gas delivery system. I have learned my lesson and now buy my small power tool exclusively with a plastic gas tank.

Two Red Ryders · 12-04-2012, 04:46 PM

Those car modern car manufactures must have had to search really had to find materials that can standup to gasoline and gasoline with 10% ethanol but cannot withstand the more powerful 15% ethanol.

cavie · 12-04-2012, 05:46 PM

Ethonal gas has a short shelf life. It has phase seperation. It absorbs water from the air. Then it seperates water/gas. This is where the troble starts. Water in the carb that looks nothing like water. Rust in the tank. Gas additives will NOT put the two back together. The leftover Ethonal sluge will not burn. It will clog small passages.

12-04-2012, 02:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Two Red Ryders Senior VR Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silverdale, WA Posts: 467 Thanks: 11 Thanked 55 Times in 47 Posts	One rationale for ethanol production in the U.S. is increased energy independence, from shifting supply from oil imports to domestic sources. Ethanol production requires significant energy, and current U.S. production derives most of that energy from domestic coal, natural gas and other non-oil sources.Because in 2006, 66% of U.S. oil consumption was imported, compared to a net surplus of coal and just 16% of natural gas (2006 figures), the displacement of oil-based fuels to ethanol produced a net shift from foreign to domestic U.S. energy sources. Currently the USA is an net oil exporter in 2011 The U.S. exported more gasoline, diesel and other fuels than it imported in 2011 for the first time since 1949. And becoming an oil exporter wasn't all done by increasing reliance on our internal oil resources there is more than one way to skin a cat. Drilling is one answer but not the only answer to USA energy independence. Using less gas obtained from imported oil is one way, improved gas mileage vehicles, ethanol, transportation accounts for a lot of our oil usage. But alternate energy sources, wind, water, solar, nuclear, thermal, natural gas, coal, and new renewable energy sources, ethanol, biofuel, and biomass also help us become energy independant. __________________ The United States of America, founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; with unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Red & Black C50 Last edited by Two Red Ryders; 12-04-2012 at 02:24 PM.

12-04-2012, 02:55 PM	#13 (permalink)
Two Red Ryders Senior VR Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silverdale, WA Posts: 467 Thanks: 11 Thanked 55 Times in 47 Posts	Automakers have filed a lawsuit against the EPA's decision to make E15 (gasoline with 15 percent alcohol) legal for all cars after 2007. They argue that, among other problems, the blend could damage the engine. Wait, moonshiners used to run their cars on 190-proof hooch. above from the popular mechanics article first they state moonshiners used 190 proof hooch. Then they ignore this fact and speculate on how ethanol could damage your car. Bush's (NREL) evaluated the potential impacts on legacy vehicles and other engines found that none of the vehicles displayed a malfunction indicator light; no fuel filter plugging symptoms were observed; no cold start problems were observed under laboratory conditions; and all test vehicles exhibited a loss in fuel economy proportional to ethanol's lower energy density. __________________ The United States of America, founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; with unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Red & Black C50

12-04-2012, 03:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
Two Red Ryders Senior VR Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silverdale, WA Posts: 467 Thanks: 11 Thanked 55 Times in 47 Posts	I personally have had less problems with my vehicles in recent years with the 10% ethanol than I had in the old days before ethanol was introduced with many warning and still warning of dire consequences of 10% ethanol. I have also survived dire consequences from the elimination of leaded gas. I have read were the current increased cost to manufacture a flex fuel vehicle capable of running on E10, E15, E30 or E85 was about $100. No doubt converting an existing car to E85 capable would cost more do to disassembly and changing of parts but in Brazil it has been done to many vehicles which initially were not capable of running on the current Brazilian standard of E85. My understanding is the 15% gas in E85 is only needed for cold temperature starts of the engines. For me going from 10% to 15% is likely to be a non event based on the government testing of existing vehicles under the Bush Administration. I suspect some minor plastic parts may not last as long with E15 but major engine components are unlikely to fail. The winter weather has always exposed any weakness in the combustion engines. The use of ethanol E10 has reduced the problems I use to experience in the winter. I suspect it's the ethanol ability to absorb water and prevent water damage in the fuel systems that gets the credit. __________________ The United States of America, founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; with unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Red & Black C50

12-04-2012, 04:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
Two Red Ryders Senior VR Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silverdale, WA Posts: 467 Thanks: 11 Thanked 55 Times in 47 Posts	Those car modern car manufactures must have had to search really had to find materials that can standup to gasoline and gasoline with 10% ethanol but cannot withstand the more powerful 15% ethanol. __________________ The United States of America, founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; with unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Red & Black C50

12-04-2012, 05:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
cavie Senior VR Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Port Charlotte Fl Posts: 748 Thanks: 29 Thanked 88 Times in 73 Posts	Ethonal gas has a short shelf life. It has phase seperation. It absorbs water from the air. Then it seperates water/gas. This is where the troble starts. Water in the carb that looks nothing like water. Rust in the tank. Gas additives will NOT put the two back together. The leftover Ethonal sluge will not burn. It will clog small passages. __________________ '03 Volusia Intruder, Cobra Drag Pipes, K&N air filter, Fatty Knees Bars, Mustang seat, Grasshopper backrest, Wolo horn. Gold wing floor boards and a few other goodies.

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